We wondered whether the unit was perhaps a re-marketed Russian item,
but we made an enquiry, concerning it, directly to the main "authority".
Paul Cornish, of the Imperial War
Museum, advises that this is a German 'Orion' night sight, made by Eltro
GmbH of Heidelberg, using Zeiss optics. He found two versions depicted
in Jane's Infantry Weapons 1978 - the Orion 80 (4X) and the Orion 110
(6X).
We found this item under a set of drawers at our home
and the only clue to it is the stamp on the block end "Alfd
Parker Birmingham". About 14" [36cm] long.
Google takes us to your web site to explain how Parkers in Birmingham
were renowned in the rifle and target world.
But what is it please?
It looks to be a full-bore calibre
rifle chamber cleaning/drying rod; but it is not possible to tell for
which calibre this one was - most probably .303" or 7.62mm CF. You
would put a 4 x 2 into the slot and twist, it's rather like a slotted
jag.
Hello Rifleman!
Been scouring your site trying to I.D. an old BSA rifle I know of but
so far have failed to find the exact same one? All the mark 111's 30-06
cal. rifle's shown, have much longer wooden section's, along the barrel,
than this one does. And was hoping perhap's you could identify for me,
exactly what it is we've got?
If you believe you could help please email me with the question's you
need answered in order for you to know what this old rifle (marked as
either a 1915 model or a 1939 model) may be?
Thank you.
There is no better way of identification
than by sending some images of the rifle and its markings. Dates that
may be either 1915 or 1939 will not permit any assessment.
You seem to be saying that it may be a S.M.L.E. ( Short,
Magazine, Lee-Enfield ). Many of these were "sporterised"
post-war, and had the fore-end woodwork cut back as part of the conversion
for sporting use. Images will be the only way we can make a judgement.
Thank's for getting back to me so quickly. And I realize
it would be impossible for you to identify this piece with only the info
that I gave you. Wasn't certain if you'd be interested in providing such
information to begin with? And didn't want to be too forward in my request's,
before I knew if I'd found the right person to ask? It seem's I have however?
And I thank you for providing this
opportunity of finally being able to identify what it is, we have here?
Although, it could take some time to provide you with the pic's?
What I can tell you is that this piece is marked as a BSA 303 cal. And
has what to me look like the letter's S M T L E stamped into the metal
band that go's around the wooden stock, just behind the barrel, and hold's
the trigger guard in place. Just below these letter's are three Roman
one's as in 111, which I take to be the model designation. These marking's
are found on the right hand side of this band, when holding the piece
in your right hand, let's say. Just underneath the
BSA co. 1915 stamped into this band as well. If this help's you any? Like
you've said though photo's would be the only sure way for you to tell?
And I'll try and get some for you ASAP! Thank you.
It looks as though, whatever the configuration
the woodwork may currently hold, the arm was originally a BSA manufactured
Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield, ( S.M.L.E.)
The markings, if on the butt-socket RHS, are then, almost certainly, "SHT"
"LE" "III"; i.e. Short Lee-Enfield Mark III, with
a manufacture date of 1915. This rifle would almost definitely have left
the factory with full-length woodwork and the traditional heavy steel
nose-cap, such as you described in your first email as having seen on
our website probably at:
https://www.rifleman.org.uk/The_Rifle_Short_Magazine_Lee-Enfield.htm)
This page shows illustrations of that very weapon from B.S.A. Co.'s own
post-war publications.
It would have been classic First World War production for issue to British
or possibly Commonwealth troops.
Thank's a lot for the info! I've kind of always's thought
that's what it was, but was never quite sure? The piece was left behind
by an Englishman that left town in a hurry, and never left any information
about it, when he did! Was all quite strange at the time, and I have a
feeling he wasn't supposed to be here, in this country, in the first place?
Purely speculation, on my part however, and there very well could be a
much more boring, explanation. This item wasn't all he left behind, and
after three year's without a word from him, I've been contemplating getting
rid of a few thing's I've been storing for the guy, ever since? Any idea
as to the value of the old BSA, or to it's desirability as a collector
piece?
I'm taking for granted these were fairly common item's? And there's probably
about a million of them spread out across the planet, with most of them
being unused like this one, and so it's rarity won't be an issue. Right?
Anyway? Thank's again for your trouble, and have a great day too, ok?
R....., you had not mentioned whether
this is a live or deactivated arm. If deactivated or live and with non-standard
woodwork, then the rifle would probably be worth around £100 to
£150 in the U.K.
In good shootable condition, with a not too worn bore, and with the original
(or indeed good matching replacement original ) fore-end woowork, then
it could be worth about £250. The WWI dated rifles do command a
small premium over post-war dated production.
Dear D......,
.........thank you for completing the response form for the War Office
Pattern Miniature Rifle.
We should point out that the details of the rifle you have entered appear
not to be for the War Office Pattern rifle, but for the Lee-Enfield
No.2 Mk.IV* training rifle - probably even more valuable.
Should you not already have seen the respective page for this rifle, it
can be found at:
https://rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.2_and_.22RF_Mk.III.html
Yours, TS, p.p. HARC-MRL
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. Sorry about that. I didn't realize until after filling
out the form that it only applied to the War Office Miniature Rifle. I
am new to collecting Enfield rifles and a little overwhelmed with all
the different types and conversions and the various markings. I happened
to find this rifle at a small gun show near here and was a little shocked
at the guys asking price. I took his phone number and took a chance that
know one else would buy it. After doing some research, I decided to buy
the rifle a few days later. The rifle has a bayonet of the 1907 type and
the previous owner told me it was the original. I paid $550 for rifle
and bayonet. I don't know if this is good or bad because I have not found
anything for sale to compare to it. This is the third Enfield I have purchased,
and the most expensive, but it is in very good condition and quite a nice
conversation piece. Does anyone know how many of these rifles were produced?
Thank you and have a good day. D......
D....,
........a fully marked up No.2 rifle would be likely to fetch at least
£250 in GB, so yours is not too far adrift. A really good example
might even command significantly more. The bayonets are about £30
for run-of-the-mill manufacturers.
The Australians made quite a number of these rifles because they used
the SMLE action right through WWII, not having the machine tooling for
the later No.4 Lee-Enfield.
Many were built in the UK both for the military and for commercial sale,
the public at large being encouraged to practice rifle shooting, particularly
with anything that remotely resembled a Service rifle.
We have no real idea of total numbers of .22RF SMLE - equivalents were
also manufactured in Canada and India - they probably amount to a good
many thousand conversions and new-build rifles of various types from prior
to 1914 right through to the mid 1950s.
(See also the Pattern
'14 and Pattern '18 models shown on the website).
Kind regards, TS, p.p. HARC-MRL
Hello from Texas,
Many years ago I had one of these rifles, and, like a fool, sold
it. Now many years later I've found another left handed one and purchased
it.
This rifle is fitted with the Parker Hale metallic sights, but
only with the sliding butt plate which it came with. I would like to put
an adjustable butt plate on it ( length of pull adjustable), and a hook
assembly. However, there isn't a supplier in the US of A to be found.
Do you folks in the UK have suppliers that I can be referred to?
For the ultimate, try ........
https://www.hps-tr.com/plates.asp
....... but you'd have to drill the buttstock and fit slider tubes to
accommodate the length adjustment rods. But this would probably be necessary
with any such modification permitting quick length adjustment
An older Anschutz version with butt-hook would
perhaps be more sympathetic to the spirit of the original, but even then
an early one might only give you length adjustment with the addition of
spacers.
It seems a shame to heavily modify a classic though, unless you can
arrange this without it showing externally if the rifle needs to be returned
to original configuration. It seems that you would at least have to drill
holes in the side of the buttstock for adjustment locking screws; perhaps
just use spacers ( once set, these rarely need altering unless you are
shooting 3-positional or sharing the rifle with another. Perhaps find
a complete 1970's Anschutz SuperMatch or similar with the adjustment already
fitted?
Thank you so much for your reply. I've looked at the web
site supplied, and wow, things have really changed since the early '70's.
Prices too!
You are right about modifying a classic, but here we shoot 4 position,
and German Schuetzen type matches (lots of Germans settled here in hill
country of Texas back in the 1800's).
Well, I am thinging of drilling and tapping the barrel for scope mounts,
but I'll hold off on all of it for a while until I'm sure of what I'm
doing. Again, thank you for your reply.
Here in Germany I have seen an Enfield No.8 MkIV advertised
(no pic. available).
I shot a couple of thousand rounds with a No.8 MkI as a cadet, and I have
heard of a MkII (but don't know what the difference is).
But a No.8 MKIV - was there ever such a thing? If so, please could you
let me know a.s.a.p.
I know there is a book by Ian skennerton, but by the time I can get a
copy by post it will be too late.
I am asking because I would like to get a No.8 and, quite possibly, participate
in the small-bore postal league next season.
Do you have a picture or dimensions of the type of multiple
target that was used ca. 1962 for the cadet competitions such as the Felden
Trophy and the Ozanne Shield (both East Anglia District, I think). As
I once shot 100.8 on such a target, I would very much like to make a copy
and see how I manage 45 years later! My wife thinks I am kidding myself
if I want to duplicate the performance of a 17-year old. She's certainly
right, but I would still like to see how close I can get.
We have never seen evidence that any
mark of No.8 rifle exists other than a Mk.1, which nomenclature was that
given to the rifle at the time of its acceptance into service in the latter
half of 1948. Presumably this simply took into account the possibility
of further marks. I will investigate the target, but it may help if you
could provide a more detailed description.
Your wife could well be proven
wrong. I am well over 60, but can now shoot almost any rifle more effectively
than I could as a cadet................ I just require the correct shooting
lens prescription!
Just wondering about the Browning BL-22 Lever Action Rifle
and is it eligible for the Postal Leagues in the Rapid Repeater Class?
I know these where made from about 1969 onwards but seem to be based on
the early Winchester.
Are you saying that you already
have an oldish BL-22 that you would like to use? If so, then we would
not be so pedantic as to exclude it. But don't go out and buy one just
to do the league; if someone heard about it, they would probably have
an argument for a complaint!
Cheers for the info, I'm a bit of a browning fan but
the pump is a bit slow for the rapid repeater. The only Browning is this
one, BL-22. I'll probably go for Browning patened Winchester or sell out
to a 39 Marlin !
Sorry, we'd expected that you probably
already had one. Didn't mean to be a spoil-sport!
Hello, I'm Manuel from Spain.
I have bought a LEE ENFIELD Nº9 MKI RIFLE in calibre 22lr, but i
need the magazine of them, because this is missing.
Please, can you help me?
In Spain this magazine is imposible to find.
Please, answer me and tell me if you can help me in this question.
I pay you the magazine and the postage to Spain.
Thank you very much.
Manuel,
we hope you will enjoy shooting your .22 Lee-Enfield.
You do not need a complete magazine
for the No.9 rifle, only the outer casing. The spring and .303" loading
platform are not used and should be removed because the fired .22RF cartridge-cases
drop into the empty magazine casing; although when you buy a magazine
it will probably have these parts in place.
Almost any magazine for a No.4 .303 rifle should fit. Perhaps eBay will
provide what you need.
Search for "Enfield magazine
303 #4".
Sir, re: the Lee-Enfield No.4 rifle.
I am trying to locate, for the above weapon, a scope carrier that will
fit directly on to the breech, with no machining required. This weapon
is stock standard. I am told that non genuine parts are available from
an American source, but have not been able to locate any to date.
I can imagine that old, original spares are very difficult to obtain at
any time. To complicate matters I live in Australia, and spares are virtually
non existent.
Could you possibly advise me if you have any thoughts on where I should
start my search, any contact names would be helpful.
Many thanks for your time
Modern alloy brackets which simply
bolt to a No.4 action to accommodate a 'scope are readily available on
eBay.
Dear Sirs,
I am hoping you might be able to, or put my request to someone who can,
advise me on the following:
A friend of mine has a service martini that was in .303 calibre and then
coverted to .22lr, at some point later it was smooth bored to .22 shotgun.
Given that it is in fairly good original condition and he wants to get rid
of it, my questions are, could it be re-sleeved in .22lr and be used in
the relevant HARC competition? Has this work been done before and is it
a lot of money to get done? And, any idea what it would be worth as a .22
shotgun and if converted to .22lr what would it be worth?
I realise the above are difficult questions and I guess I'm only looking
for an idea or ballpark figures so as to get a feel as to whether to get
it or walk away from it.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Regards
C.........
Hello C.......,
..........theoretically, it is not a problem to re-sleeve one, although
finding a sleeve long enough is more problematic. We had great difficulty
finding sleeves for anything longer than a SMLE. There are two or three
firms in the U.K. who will undertake this work, but it is really not for
us to make recommendations. Look for engineering gunsmiths in the shooting
press.
A good rifle might fetch little more than £200;
they can go for little more than £120. However, a Greener
Queen's Cup prize model might fetch nearer £600; the variance
can be significant.
A .22 smoothbore will be much less sought after,
and correspondingly priced - perhaps as little as £50 to £60.
If it will cost the price of a reasonable rifle to re-sleeve it, then
it would probably be easier to find a rifle than have the work done on
the shotgun.
We paid nearly £40 for sleeves just long enough to do an SMLE, but
not a Long-Lee, from Parkers some years ago. The only other answer would
be to fit one of the shorter sleeves ( more easily obtainable and cheaper)
and accept a counter-bored muzzle of 3 or 4 inches; it will shoot just
as well!
The rifle could be shot with its open sights
in Service class. Several are shot to good effect by those who can organise
a decent sight picture. With a folding rear aperture sight it would be
eligible for Classic class.
Hope this helps, although I suspect not a
lot!
I have owned this model BSA for approximately 30 years and haven't been
able to establish the exact date and model—although it appears to
be a model 8 or one
of the twelves.
Your expertise and help would be much appreciated.
These are some of the knowns:
- the production # 3xxxxx
- the barrel is 28 inches long
- the overall length of the gun is 43-1/2 inches
- the backsight has the marking B.S.A. P.Pat. 21332 -09
- the front sight has the marking letter B
- at the base of the ejection lever on the stock appears a marking that
looks like a chevron with the number 10 in it and below that appears the
letter M, and below that the letter T
I am in the process of considering selling this wonderful piece but have
no sense of current value.
I don't want to over-price or under-price it —your guidance would
be appreciated.
It certainly looks to be a 'twelve'; the 'eight'
is 3+ inches shorter, as a look through the data in the advertisements
on our webpages should confirm. It is worth whatever someone is willing
to pay - probably between £80 and £120, dependent upon condition,
particularly of the bore!
I am the proud owner of a Model 12 that I have owned for
30 years. All serial numbers match. They are 2xxxx. Is there any info on
the approximate manufacture date?
I am writing to ask if you could get me information on a tang mounted rear
sight for this rifle. It is equipped with an iron rear sight with graduated
elevations from 40 to 140 meters and a round front sight that you can change
the blade by screwing out the front mounted screw.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Thanks very much, any info will be greatly appreciated.
RB
Dear R......,
in production for more than 30 years, with most manufactured between the
two World Wars, and an as yet undiscovered total production figure, accurately
dating a BSA Model 12 is not something
we have been able to properly achieve.
John Knibbs holds most of the surviving records for BSA production. In his excellent book on BSA - "The
Golden Century", he really only details serial numbering for later
models with prefixed serial numbers. Many BSA records were lost, if we
recall correctly, as a result of bomb damage in Birmingham during the
last War, and it may be that much of this information is no longer available.
( Please let us know if you
obtain any definite information).
Our best estimate is that the total production
was of the order of 60,000 rifles, although this could be wildly inaccurate
as it is derived from serial numbers seen on rifles at auction, and there
is no guarantee that the series started with No.1, although that was the
most usual system at that time. One rifle was reported, in a catalogue,
with a serial number of 586555 but, since most seem not to much exceed
58,000 we suspect this may be a misprint with an extra "5"!
Also, most auctioneers are unwilling to state the Model number, with good
reason - models are confusing in appearance, often modified or updated,
and identification is therefore not at all easy - thus a serial number
cannot always be attributed to a Model 12; only the fact that it was doubtlessly
the model with the greatest production is an indication that the highest
numbers are Model 12 rifles.
All this supposition means that it might not
be unreasonable to estimate that, with limited production in the periods
over both Wars, most production was between 1919 and 1937/8, a period
of approximately 20 years including the two years prior to WWI. An average
annual production figure of around 3,000 would therefore seem a reasonable
estimate. Divide your own rifle's serial number by 3,000, add the figure
to 1912, and you may have the approximate year of manufacture; no guarantee
though.
Your description of the sights on your particular
rifle suggest they are unusual by virtue of the element/ blade replacement,
unless I have misunderstood what you say, and the rifle has been retro-fitted
with the later larger tunnel foresight ~ either BSA or Parker-Hale ~ with interchangeable
elements; the most common owner upgrade on rifles in use for so many years.
These sights are detailed on the website. If the rearsight is secured
to the rear of the action body, then is it perhaps a PH no.7 variant?
Again a much later fitment, although calibration from 40-140 metres suggest
it is something foreign and again unusual. The folding rear-sight most
used on this rifle was the BSA
Model 8. Again, this item is elsewhere represented on the site. Lest
you have not already found the relevant page, I have added a link from
the Model 12 page ( I am aware that site navigation leaves something to
be desired, and am building a site map/contents page).
The No.8 sights appear on eBay from time to
time, but are increasing in cost. You may well acquire one from an arms
fair, or perhaps, indeed, John Knibbs. Take care that you obtain one of
the correct height, although these are probably the most common.
Best wishes and regards, TS,
p.p. HARC-MRL
Dear Sir ,
I am trying to source 3 sight sets, for use with No.8 lee enfield .22
rifles; they currently have a vertical adjustment only.
Is there a conversion that I can buy to use with these rifles, as they
are used in a school league. e.
Model number on one of the rifles is T74 / 47 does this help?
Dear A......,
..............try A.J. Parker Ltd. of Armoury Works, 348, Moseley Road,
Birmingham B12 9AZ. They were associated with Parker-Hale and involved
with the design of the very adapter that you need - the Parker(-Hale)
8/53 Target sight/windage adapter - which fits simply onto the standard
No.4 or No.8 rifles' folding rear-sight
leaf. I know of at least one A.T.C. unit which has had these adapters
fitted to their No.8s for several years.
Bear in mind that, technically,
adding a windage facility to a Service rifle may affect its eligibility
for some Service type competitions where 'aiming-off' is expected to be
the order of the day. For all other purposes, the modification turns the
No.8, very accurate in its own right, into a more than acceptable target
rifle. I used my own, on Wednesday last, to shoot a 97 on the current
NSRA small-bore leagues target. I cannot do much better with an Anschutz!
You see the 8/53 windage adapters
on eBay occasionally, and they command ridiculously high sums. Parkers
will sell them at a sensible, even old, price. If you say that they are
for a school unit, a request for discount may even fall on other than
deaf ears; it's worth a try anyway if you are purchasing several items.
Best of luck, TS, p.p. HARC-MRL
Hello;
.........I located your name from a site on the internet: https://rifleman.org.uk/League information Download page.html
On this Web site it talks about BSA lever action rifles. I have either a
No. 8 or No. 12 BSA (Hard to tell) and I am looking to find front sight
inserts for this weapon. Do you know of anyone/Business that I could contact
for information about the sight and its inserts?
The sight on my rifle looks like the Parker-Hale Model 2 Patent - Interchangeable
Disc Foresight as described on this page: https://rifleman.org.uk/BSA_sights_and_accessories.htm
EXCEPT that the sight on my rifle does not have two tangs on either side,
but a single tang on the bottom.
Thank you for your time and help…
Dear I......,
............these are probably BSA's own version of the FS22 type tunnel
foresight and element with the single under lug. The more usual equivalent
seen is, as you say, in Parker or Parker-Hale guise with the twin horizontal
lugs on the elements.
Good luck, TS
p.p. HARC-MRL
I wish to take the opportunity to thank you for the outstanding
information on your website as I found it as a link from Bob Adams Guns
in New Mexico,USA. I have collected martini cadet rifles in .310 from 1955
to present. My first encounter with them was at a company called Golden
state arms corp., in southern, California, where I found a wooden barrel
full of them for $9.00 per rifle, I PURCHASED THE WHOLE BARRELL and I still
have all of them. The last .310 Martini I purchased was a pair from canada,
1 .22, 1.310,, total cost $1350.00. A thought to remember,,the cost of the
martini's is NOT going up, the the value of the currency is going DOWN.
I own and operate a plantation in E. Texas, and have a 4 position 100YD
rifle range 1/4 mile from the house with covered firing points. I reload
310 cadet, & .300 rook cartridges. Thank you again, L.......
Eastern Frontier, Republic of Texas, if you look at a
map you will see the Republic of Texas borders the southern part of the
U. S. If yaall ever get to TEXAS, come to Dallas, Texas airport and call
us, will pick you up and spend a few days shooting old martini's There're
NO GUN LAWS in Texas and Texans can do as they please, well its time to
get back to planting trees, L......
Dear L....,
.......thank you for your kind comments; It is good to hear that the website
is found useful in such far-flung places as Texas, where one assumes that
almost everything rifle-related is probably already well covered!
How many cadet Martinis are there
to the barrel?! Were they originally destined for Australia or specifically
imported to Canada or the U.S.A.? I am obviously assuming here that they
are B.S.A. rifles rather than Francotte, for instance, and that the barrel
was the original packing case and that all the rifles were of the same
batch; I am perhaps assuming too much! If the barrel was an ex-factory
container, do you by any chance still have it or any photographs of it?
(It would make a novel gun cabinet in the gunroom of a collection). In
any event, you must have a good few rifles in your collection.
At least Martinis don't DEpreciate
to the degree of computers and cars; and they're a good deal more reliable
than either!
You are indeed fortunate to have
your own range; we are a little short of space over here for such luxuries!
Your invitation is most generous and, who knows, we may one day get a
chance to take you up on it!
Kind regards, all at HARC-MRL
Hi all!
I was just wondering what you would be prepared to pay (in pounds sterling)
for a late model 12/15 BSA Martini action club gun.
I realise that a lot depends upon condition and rarity. However given
that the rifle is in reasonable condition and shoots acurately what would
you be prepared to pay for one?
I emphasise that I am not selling my 12/15 but just rather curious
about its current market value.
T......,
.........a club rifle could command as little as £50 at auction.
A really good little used rifle might fetch as much as £150, but
one would have to be exceptional to reach any higher figure.
Hello
Thank you for the information on your web site, I found it very interesting
and informative.
Recently I purchased what I believe, from the information on your web
site, to be a model 12/15, it is in very good condition for a rifle built
50 odd years ago. The Serial Number is P6xxxx.
With guidance from your website I was able to dismantle and clean the
action.
On firing it, it was discovered that the chamber has been bored out to
take .22 Magnum.
The rifle seems so sturdy and well built, but as the .22 Magnum has a
lot more power than a .22lr it seemed sensible to enquire further from
an authortative source before using it again.Are you able to advise whether
there are any safety issues, or to advise the contact details of someone
who may be able to do so.
Many thanks.
These BSA actions were originally
designed to take .22 Hornet, .310 Cadet and .300 Rook type loads. Many
have been utilised for even more powerful and 'wildcat' cartridges. As
long as there are no faults with the action there should be no problem.
Hello,
I just came across your very informative site and was looking at the data
on some of the rifles that I own. After seeing the designation that perhaps
only 250 Ten-X rifles were produced I got mine out of the safe to check
its serial number was and found that it was 417. It is of the late production
type and was in the white when I purchased it 25 years ago. Thank you for
providing so much information online.
CW, Colorado.
Dear C......,
that is a really useful piece of information, thank you. We will update
the webpage as soon as we can.
Should your rifle vary significantly from that shown on our site, we would
be pleased to have an image or two and any more information you may be
able to provide.
It is good to hear that your Ten-X is still with you and cared for after
all these years.
Kind regards, TS, p.p. HARC-MRL
Hi,
I'm glad that you may find the information of some use. As it was in the
white, unstocked and without any sights (and that the shop from which
I purchased it - over here, by the way - had several others in similar
state) I think it may be safe to assume that these were the tail of production
and remained uncompleted and stashed away until being sold as a lot. I
had it restocked and scoped and it is quite accurate.
Dear C....,
.............thank you for " dotting the 'I's and crossing the 'T's".
We suspected that it had to be something like that for the rifle to surface
in about 1980 in the white. Yes the barrels were very good for accuracy;
indeed, the several that we have come across, and fired, still are!
All the best, TS, HARC-MRL
Thanks for the wonderful info. on the website.....I have
a 12/15 and a International mk2.
Our club at xxxxxxx has a Sportco Martini, which has languished for some
time without use. If any information about it is of assistance, please
let me know. I bought this about 8 years ago for the club, amongst other
rifles, from a club which closed down. It has only been used twice since,
and is in sound condition.
Regards, B.........
Dear B.....,
........it's good to hear from a fellow BSA Martini enthusiast. Here on
the East Coast we have a small but dedicated band of followers shooting
the Winter Postal Leagues. If you're not already doing this, don't forget
to have a go in the Autumn!
Re: the Sportco;
if you have any further information, or can send images of your example,
then we'd be pleased to see/hear of it/them.
Dear Sir, can you help me with info about the The WINCHESTER
"WINDER" MUSKET
I need to now wash it original mend for black powder are was it made for
smokeless powder is dear some information I can find any ware?
Thank, D.... Netherlands
Dear D......,
..........this rifle was manufactured both before and after the years
in which smokeless powder was first introduced for the .22 rimfire cartridge.
The rifle could have been intended for either, but would usually carry
the appropriate proof marks ( certainly in the U.K.). Date of production
of any particular example may give an approximate indication. A .22RF
rifle will probably satisfactorily use either powder.
TS, p.p. HARC-MRL
Dear sir,
I looked at your web site last year but didn’t have time to do anything
about it. Having looked at your site again yesterday I went off to the
club (B******** Rifle Club) took out of the cupboard an old BSA
12-15 (P6xxxx) that I last shot as a boy in about 1979, found a two
point sling in a box stuffed under a table, (incidentally the one that
I used to use in 1979, although I note that it must have shrunk considerably!)
blew the dust off and removed a dead spider from the fore-sight, went
down and shot a four off!!!!
Dear J*****,
it's easiest and quickest for me to intersperse the answers to your queries
within your text, so here goes ...............
If you can shoot a 96 on a 1989 target, then you will be acheiving constant
" tons" on the Cadets and Schools one!
Thankyou for your prompt reply! I shall
follow your example and add my text to yours.
( It never ceases to amaze me how badly
I am affected by "stickeritice") [ This is the disease which afflicts a usually
high-scoring shooter when the target at which they are firing has a competition
sticker attached! - Ed]
It will be the "Skirmisher"
that will win or lose your matches in the league ..........................
you should read up the notes on technique and kit.
B*%%*£$s Skirmisher? Missed that
one! I have had a bit of success with turning-targets standing, but the
last timed event I shot prone was at Mill Pool with an Accuracy International
Coopermatch borrowed from a friend, 12 rounds RG borrowed from his wife,
a shooting jacket and sling from somebody walking behind the firing line,
and a scope that appeared from somewhere during 5 mins of madness before
the detail started; the underwear, however, was my own. My score wasn't
that good, 20 something, but it was 600 yards and the three flags I could
see were all blowing in different directions. I beat the fourteen year
old two up the line though! Ha!
I couldn’t have been more amazed if I had
dropped a brick and it had fallen up! As a result of this little experiment
I would like to enter your postal league,
The results that can be obtained with these
rifles are not to be sneezed at. There's evidently little need to change
a barrel after 10,000 rounds! We will be delighted to have you and your
colleagues joining the competition.
Based upon a constant membership of 20,
shooting two leagues and three internal competitions, that rifle should
have fired something more like 234,000 rounds! I know they are good. My
BSA 12-15, has seen me shooting LSR for county over the winter, but No
Jacket, two point sling, etc., and a 96 prone? That's .4 below my average
with my Anschutz Match 54, and half a hundredweight associated kit. (My
12-15 has often been laughed at as I have approached a firing line at
the ranges on which I shoot, but nobody has ever been laughing as we have
left!)
but I notice that a 12-15 is not shot using a
standard 1989 pattern 2510 B.M./89 target, but rather the 'cadets and
schools' target. I have a small quantity of these marked 2505 CS (1971)
that we obtained a few years ago for shooting the LSR [Lightweight
Sport Rifle- Ed] prone discipline. Are they one and the same?
Yes, they're the ones 2505 = 25 yards
and 5 diagrams.
Secondly I notice that you are running a standing
league this year I would be interested in shooting the competition but
am wondering whether my LSR would be eligible. Some time ago I gave up
on self loaders and managed to find a 12-15 ( 11326) which had been customised/butchered
for hunting (Please see photo sorry about the background but she who must
be obeyed has got me putting in a new kitchen)
......................................
Looks not unattractive, and
to have been fitted with Model 15 butt-stock perhaps. ........... I'm
tiling the floor!
Yes a little odd. The serial number doesn't
start with a 'P' and it is marked A.G.Parker over the breech. If I could
find someone that could do it I would love to get a border barrel to the
same profile as a proper 12-15, and rummage for a foresight tunnel. Unfortunately
everybody I have met so far has said that cutting the "cotter"
slot for the QR taper pin is too difficult. It would be nice to have two
barrels for the one gun, even though that would probably mean two ejectors.
Is there any body out there that you know of who might be able to undertake
this? Do you know of anybody with access to the blueprints? The rifle
has the slot for the indicator on the side of the block, but the indicator
is not fitted. I have often thought about trying to bodge one, but can't
quite see how it should be done. If you are tiling on wood I have found
that white spirit removes the adhesive from the hands quite well!
Fortunately I got to it before a scope was fitted,
but the barrel has been turned down and ordinary open sights fitted. This
rifle was obviously made after 1946 but given that it has the right sights
would it be eligible?
Perfectly; just the thing for
Deliberate, and you might be able to compete in the Rapid Repeater class.
5 shots in 20 seconds is quite achievable with a good Martini. A few entrants
are firing more than 16 shots in 60 seconds on the "Skirmisher"
(prone). You would probably not be the only single-shot shooter in the
rapid comp.
I shall have a go at that I think.
If you can answer these queries then I can get
on with completing the entry form. Lastly several of our older club members
expressed an interest in what I was doing last night (and I think a great
deal of mirth at the look on my face as 26 years of preconceptions disappeared
in a wisp of smoke) The cut-off date for application is in September but
when beginning or end? I look forward to your reply.
Yours faithfully
J**** B*******
Last entries last day in September.
Forms and info sheets go out to previous entrants and interested parties
at the end of August/early Sept. The cards for the first two rounds must
be with the scorers by mid November - six weeks - not overly pressured!
All the best,
...................... HARC-MRL
I shall endeavour to get my entry off
as soon as I can find the printer amongst all of these kitchen utensils!
J.B.
I have recently bought a Vickers rifle , but I am unable
to identify it from the imformation on the web site .
The action retaining screw goes in from underneath as in the early models
. It has the curved lever as shown on the Champion model, but the forend
of the stock is more like the Jubilee model.
Any ideas? Images URLs attached.
https://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1618/8577531/15921972/242904173.jpg
https://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1618/8577531/15921972/242902637.jpg
https://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1618/8577531/15921972/242902630.jpg
https://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1618/8577531/15921972/242902619.jpg
https://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1618/8577531/15921972/242902608.jpg
https://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1618/8577531/15921972/242902595.jpg
R........,
unless we have misconstrued something, or you have spotted a difference,
that wehave not, between your rifle and the references on the webpage,
we feel reasonably sure that your rifle is indeed a Vickers
Champion model. You will see, in the 1939 advertisement for the Empire
model, that there is a note relating to the Champion offering custom made
stocking as an option. Thus to see either butt-stock or fore-end woodwork
configured other than as images on the webpage should perhaps come as
no surprise.
The butt comb on your rifle appears
to have been further raised from original, a quite common modification.
Otherwise, then stocking is close to what one might expect and the checkering
on the fore-end seems closely to resemble that used on the Champion. It
is perfectly feasible that there was an original requirement for the wrist
to be checkered too. It would be interesting to know whether the two checkered
areas appear to have been done by the same hand, for instance, or whether
there is any suggestion that the checker-work is other than professionally
done. Modified or replacement stocks would not be unusual, many shooters
being as keen then to employ the latest advances as they are today, but
from what I can see there seems no reason to suspect the rifle to be other
than original.
Cheers, TS p.p. HARC-MRL
I had thought that it most closly resembled the Champion
, and to get a second opinion to that effect is heartening. As I understand
it the records were lost during the war so I will probably never be able
to find out its history .
The only obvious mods are the but extension and the fact that someone
has grafted a modern Anschutz fore sight on it . The original mounts are
intact though so I will replace it with something more acceptable .
It seems to shoot well (better than me anyway),so hopefully I will campaign
it in the next winter league.
Thanks for your help.
Hello,
I'm trying to find parts for my L39A1, original screws, a suitable scope,
sling.
Any help appreciated.
John
John,
if you are not already a member, the Lee-Enfield rifle Association can
be a useful organisation. Some members deal in such items, and their Forum
on Yahoo can offer many contacts. (We have no vested interest).
TS, p.p. HARC-MRL
